Expert Tips: Lessons and Strategies Learned By Fielding Over 1000 Leads

We have an awesome episode today, an interview with provider attorney Robert Manson, who is one of the veterans of our service; we’ve been working with him for many years. In the title, we make reference to him fielding over 1,000 leads and that’s absolutely true. In fact, we looked back into it and he’s literally field in more in $1,500 to $2,000 range and still climbing to the stay.

He has a wealth of knowledge and experience, he’s crafted a well-defined process that is very approachable, a very helpful for every single client right from the get-go, responds immediately, his staff as well aligned to respond well to clients that are coming to the office from a lead generation source. The Unbundled options he offers are very creative and flexible and work around pretty much anyone’s budget and he’s doing extremely well for leads as a result.

Just a great episode, we talk about so many more things than this and I think you’re really going to love it. So, let’s jump right in and this conversation with Mr. Robert Manson one of our provider attorneys out of Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Below is the transcription of this episode from our Unbundled Attorney Mastermind Podcast. You can listen to the entire episode by clicking here.

Dave Aarons: Hey Bob, welcome to the show.

Robert Manson: Hey Dave, thanks for having me on, I appreciate it.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, I’m looking forward to our chat today. We’ve certainly been working together for a long time and I’m really looking forward to catching up on all the activities in your expansions throughout the city of Minnesota, and I thank you for coming on today.

Robert Manson: Thank you. Like I said, I think I’m probably one of your first ones if I’m not mistaken.

Dave Aarons: Gosh, it’s been at least a couple of year and I think you were one of the original provider back in the day, so I think we got at least a couple of years under our belt, right?

Robert Manson: Yeah, I was. I remember you guys calling and I wasn’t sure I’d had a lot of people with various attorney referral services that either didn’t work out, they hadn’t got positive feedback [inaudible 00:02:24]. I think I actually didn’t return your call at first but you guys were kind of diligent, I’m very glad that we finally connected up. I liked your premise, I liked the fact it was no risk process, no contracts locked in. I had one where they wanted to lock me into a two-year contract, when I asked for referral they said we don’t do that, they said that I’m not interested in the program.

And what I liked about yours was a program that I could stop at any time if it worked great, if it didn’t, that was fine and I’m still here. And expanding and it’s worked out really well.

Dave Aarons: Awesome. Yeah, I’m really always surprised to hear that some agencies require a contract and it kind of raises an eyebrow as far why they would ever require that because if they had a lot of confidence in their product and they wanted to make a long term win-win they’d want to make sure that the attorney was a fit for the clients we were attracting and also that they were seeing the results that made it worthwhile. And for whatever reason we’re not delivering on that promise then we certainly don’t want to have anyone locked in any longer than that.

Robert Manson: Well, that was the beauty of your system because I tried a lot of different advertising mediums. I tried the TV, the 1800 help-line I paid a couple of grand on that, I had advertise in newspapers, magazines, I’d had another attorney referral service where I was paying a monthly fee and that started out really good then it petered out. They changed their algorithms, they weren’t able to keep up with it and all over sudden I wasn’t getting anything out of it and I was paying a flat fee.

I talked to another lawyer with another service very similar to yours as far as the lead generation and stuff, but he never got any business, he said he wouldn’t get any leads and when he got them they weren’t any good, and it was a virtually an identical type of service to yours. So I was quite impressed this man was like the exclusive for Minnesota as well and he wasn’t getting anything. In fact, he recently terminated with them because it just wasn’t working out for him. The leads he was getting wasn’t making any money on the process at all.

And with you and your system, I’ve been getting, Oh my gosh, up to two to four leads a day coming through. And I’ve had to add an associate, I’ll probably add another associate. I have just started to affiliate with an individual up in the northern part to handle hearings, I’ll probably reach out for someone over in the Southwest part of the state as well just so that if the Unbundled course you can do via email, and we’ve done that. I’ve had clients I’ve been able to take care of that I have never met, and that’s worked out fairly well. And then I just had one where the person was out of state but the court allowed me to appear by phone for the motion hearings.

So, I didn’t have to drive out. And that’s becoming more and more prevalent when you get away from some of these areas. A lot of the courts are more willing to allow the motion hearings to appear by phone, so you don’t have the long travel times. And that’s been really very beneficial because your client still has the expertise of a trained lawyer but doesn’t have to pay him face time to drive out three, four hours. And it’s been a few different cases that been like that.

And like I said, at this point what I’m doing now is affiliating with attorneys in other areas now to be able to handle that type of business, and that’s again working out very, very well.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, this is something that we definitely want to explore and kind of shine a light on it that the expansion and kind of how you kind of step that out over the years here that we’ve been working together. But maybe where we can start here is just give kind of a general context on how you kind of how you started on your law practice, where you went to school and maybe a little bit about you, so those that aren’t aware of your practice, which will be most of the listeners and get to get a feel of who you are and what you do.

Robert Manson: Basically I went to Law school of William Mitchell, I actually was a legal clerk in the military. I wasn’t a lawyer, I was more somebody took of article 15s and MP reports and work with the captains and drafted up some paper work at what they call the Battalion level. And I always wanted to be a lawyer but heard you can’t be a lawyer unless you have some of this in law, but that got me interested in the game.

So, I was able to [parley 00:06:54] the legal specialist into a position with the law firm clerking, took the LSAT when I got out and then was admitted to William Mitchell. I got out in May, was admitted to Mitchell about two weeks before school started in August of 1986. I went to school full-time nights, worked full-time days, that was the beauty of William Mitchell, they had the only night program in Minnesota. And they had a very good program, Warren [Burgen 00:07:19] came out of there.

And so I went to Mitchell, then I got out, I’d actually been working for Honeywell then I was working for as a clerk for some firms, then I started with a collection agency, got caught and split across fire ended up without a job and said enough of this stuff and started my own firm at ground zero at that point in time. Did a bunch of different type of work, I was doing some transactional work, some business work, just kind a real general practice. And then about 17, 18 years I met up with a resource center, [Fathers 00:07:53] resource center and started to do weekly law clinics on Wednesdays.

So you’d meet with people that would come through and that started generating a lot of business and it ended up with me niching into family law at that point in time. So, I’ve done almost all family law now for about 17, 18 years, it’s all we do here.

And the business like a said had a lot of different referral sources over the years and a lot of ways to try to generate that face to face law clinic, which is probably the most productive because people had an opportunity to see you and about everything else would either not generate business or like I say the one kind of petered out and then at this point in time I’ve become your exclusive in Minnesota that hasn’t been for a real long period now but that led me then to reach out and start to reach out some attorneys. I have one up in North Minnesota or the Northwest corner that … He was opposing counsel on a case and I was very impressed with his approach. It was very common sense, he was very reasonable to deal with, I mean, wasn’t one to give away the firm but he was just very realistic in his appraisal of situation and very easy to work with. I could say good head on his shoulders.

So, I’ve talked to him about working something out, we’re still kind of in that process of how we’re going to handle that and vision what he’ll do his handle here since I can’t appear at, and then I would still handle trial work because I do a lot of trial work. I’ve been doing this for 26 years and I probably litigate more than most. This month I had seven trails, which I still get a little bit … Get a little much even for me I’m going to have to pare back on that a little bit. But I do litigate by the same token, reasonable settlement family laws in everybody’s best interest especially the child, but there is times where you can get that, either the other side is going to be unreasonable or the circumstances such that you just have to go to trial.

So, my view is developed over the years, and Minnesota, in general, has developed to be a more settlement oriented in family law, we used to have what we called temporary hearings where you go in and start fighting right away and now you can’t-do that. You have to do a meet and greet with the judge and they try to get into alternative dispute resolution right away. And they found that a large percentage of the cases are settling now if you can get people talking and trying to work stuff out before they start slinging mud.

So, that’s been a reality in the profession here in Minnesota. I think it’s also been followed in other states now, they had what was called the early neutral evaluation here where the idea is to get people in front of a male and female team that listen and then give their feedback. It’s confidential and non-binding but the concept is to let people what is likely going to happen if you do go to trial very early in the process within the first 30 to 60 days of filling your divorce or custody action. You are in front of this people and they found that it settles about 60% of the cases, and so they’re settling within about three, four months.

Dave Aarons: I’m sure that’s been helpful given the fact they’re so many people filling [inaudible 00:11:09] these days that they give them kind of some options where they try to resolve things without having to go to a trial that a lot of people would have a lot of trouble with or may not be fully prepared to handle.

Robert Manson: Exactly. It helps us too even with the Unbundled because often times I’ll tell people, you know, if you’re going to retain and attorney especially in counties that strict initial case meant what they call initial case management conference, basically meet and greet with the judge. And the social early initial evaluations, you really don’t need the lawyer in until after those fail but it’s not a bad idea to consult with the attorney. So, sometimes a to of people will retain me Unbundled just to be able to call in and say, okay, here is the process and da, da, da and then like I said it’s kind of [inaudible 00:11:58] you go at that point. And that way they have the advice of an attorney without having to come up with a large retainer and that’s been very beneficial.

And then if they decide to retain the attorney, they wait until after that social early initial evaluation. And at that point at time they’ve saved probably about 1,500 to 2,000 in fees that otherwise we just kind of sit there during that process because initial case management conference is set up that no motions can be brought, the judge cannot make any decisions. So, essentially nothing legal is really happening until after the early initial evaluation process is done. I mean, it’s always best to have an attorney if you can afford it and it certainly doesn’t hurt to have them. But especially if you’re a little tight on money, I’ll tell the client you know wait until down the line because having me in there sitting there taking notes may not be the most efficient use of your money.

And that’s one thing that our firm has always done is try to give value. I had a guy come through in law clinics, he’d spend 150,000 with a large law firm downtown and hadn’t been to trial yet and I asked him what was going on and it was just a straight forward custody case, no special circumstances, there were no closely held businesses. I don’t think alimony was an issue. This is a case that if it had been with our firm maybe we would have billed out maybe ten at that point.

I mean, that’s always and that’s why I like your process too, it kind of marshes with our view that it’s important to have the advice of an attorney but not everybody has $100,000 to go spend and there are good ways to spend your money and bad ways to spend your money, and we always look at the cost benefit here, we’ll always tell clients if you … Weren’t the type to go spend $1,000 on a $200 item or do something for principal because it just doesn’t make much sense at that point in time.

I mean, custody is always important and that’s kind of an intangible, and that’s something we’ve always focused on. But as far as the rest of it, that somebody come through they pay $8,000 to an attorney and they haven’t even started the case yet. That was drafting a divorce petition that typically we charge $600, $700 bucks. So that’s why I appreciated your approach to the process because it meshes with ours when it comes to giving value. Like I say, a lot of people don’t have tens of thousands of dollars.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, maybe you can talk briefly about that and then we can talk more specifically about kind of the options you offer and so forth. But given the fact that you do offer Unbundled legal services as an option and knowing that they have that initial meet and greet, that first step that they’re going to have to go through, and I will assume in many other courts all across the country there is going to be that initial mediation step where the courts are kind of getting involved to try to encourage parties to kind of resolve things before they go down the litigation path.

How has that affected the way in which you’ve offered Unbundled options, which I would assume that gives you the ability to kind of do a pay as you go where maybe you’re drafting this sort of petition, prepare the case and get everything ready to go so they can file it and then they kind of go to that step and then if it doesn’t work out maybe they can bring you involved. Have you kind of found that kind of initial breaking it in the process and seeing how things go or maybe them hiring you for just pieces of it to get started and then changing the relationship from there. Has that played itself out in that fashion?

Robert Manson: It really has, that’s what we’re finding out. A lot of times people have come through, and we’ll draft maybe a stipulated decree where you’re drafting up an agreement of the parties where this is what they would like to have happen. So, you may draft up someone’s petition for divorce a stipulated decree and they go and present it to the other party, if they sign off great, if they don’t, some times the people at that point will come back and say, okay, it went south or this happened or that happened and I’m going to need an attorney.

So, we’re finding that a fair number of your Unbundled people that start out that way or often time end retaining you down the line because at some point in time the other party gets an attorney or it’s progressed to a point that they need to file documents or we have people that will come back then and sit down and again pay as you go they’ll continue Unbundled. And they’ll say, okay, I have this and this coming up can you help me with this and we’ll help him draft up a motion or an affidavit and then they pay us a lot less at that time as well.

So, we’re finding exactly that and a lot of people are starting out Unbundled and if it works great but if it doesn’t then they decide, okay, at this point then I’m looking to pay the retainer, so it’s kind of a win-win because if it works, it’s good for them, they haven’t spent a lot of money but if it doesn’t work you still have established that relationship and they tend to come back to you then at that point in time, so yeah, it’s been very beneficial.

Dave Aarons: And there is a lot of lawyers that maybe either still new in Unbundled, offering Unbundled legal services or brand new or still kind of refining the approach and the strategy that you’ve been able to refine over many years and obviously probably thousands leads. And that we say, I would think over the past two years over 1,000 clients I would think.

So, can we talk a little bit about maybe the different kinds of options, I mean, it’s going to depend on where they’re coming to you and the type of circumstances but maybe can be kind of partial out … Well, one of the things that I do is I can prepare these documents, we usually do it under a flat rate, if they’re at this stage of the process, I can either do a limited representation where I do this things or I might coach them on specific steps. Can you kind of partial out the different types of options that you can kind of make available to the client, that way depending on where they are financially you’re able to kind of tailor-fit the right solution depending on what they need help with and where they’re in the process?

Robert Manson: We kind of offer all of those things except for limited representation. They really don’t have limited representation per se in Minnesota. And the situation you get into is that sometimes if somebody has multiple attorneys, they can get a little bit of a negative impression from the court and then also while there is a whole bunch of family attorneys, once they do it as much as I do it, aren’t as common, so for me particularly in the areas I practice a lot in you will be in front of the same referees and judges who’ll get to know you pretty well.

So, if you’re bouncing in and out, the problem you get into is you’re in a case and you have to fill [inaudible 00:18:55] withdraw. And the problem you get into is you don’t want a referee or judge necessarily to get a negative impression that you don’t stick with a case, which is kind of an intangible thing that might affect you down the line. And in our case, you’re either in or out. So in other words, all you have is your certificate representation in and you have to appear at all hearings or you have your notice of withdraw in and then you’re done with the case.

So, we really it’s difficult for us. Now, that said, I have had cases where I’ve offered a flat fee, where I’ve said we will handle drafting up a temporary motion and appear at one hearing. So, I’ve had that, I’ve had somebody that me and just for that. We put our certificate of rep in and go draft our paper work, we appear at the hearing and then we withdraw and then they handle it after that because often times we don’t do a lot of the temporary motions, that’s where you set the ground rules for the divorce. But particularly if you have a case where there is a significant reason for your client to get custody, say there are chemical dependence issues, mental health issues, document issues that say, okay, you need to get the child upfront right now.

And so if have the attorney of a little better opportunity to do that and if you get the child then you’re on the uphill … It’s downhill from there, where you get the child and then at that point in time off at times you can go ahead and handle the rest yourself because getting the child in your custody and care kind of develops [inertia 00:20:31].

So, we have had that where we have gone and said, you need an attorney upfront because you have some pretty complex issues or you have some very serious issues but you don’t have the money to go through to trial. And so sometimes we look at that and off either pay as you go or offer a flat fee to handle that position. The other we’ll do is sometimes offer a flat fee, someone has petitioned for divorce, you say okay, it’s a flat fee of X dollars. And sometimes we’ll very that a little bit upon a persons circumstances as well or it’s just a straight Unbundled pay as you go they anticipate that they’re going to have continuing contact with you, and then you have a little more open-ended retainer agreement.

In Minnesota a flat fee we have to have special language in there to advise a client that it will not be placed in a trust account however the services are provided, you might be able to get a refund back. So we’re a little strange here, they got rid of non-refundable retainers, like I said, the flat fees have to have special language, you’re supposed to have a written retainer. It’s not necessarily required but strongly encouraged by our PR board, Professional Responsibility board.

So, we basically have developed three different retainers, one is a flat fee retainer. One is a flat fee retainer with a required language, one is just a standard retainer with a retainer amount in there and then the other is an Unbundled services where it will have a specific scope as services being provided. It will indicate that it is only for advice and the systems we’re drafting documents that we will not enter certificate of representation, we will not appear in court. So, clearly delineates what our responsibilities are because that’s Important. The client has to know and have an expectation of is going to or what they are purchasing.

So, all of those options are available and it all kind of depends on where the client is in the process, it depends on just what they’re looking for, what their resources are, and it also depends upon the complexity of their case. There is people who will come through when they have a pretty straightforward case, they just want to get an extra day of parenting time where they want to get a set schedule and it’s pretty straight forward. In other words, they really don’t need a lawyer but it doesn’t hurt to have us give them pointers or draft a paper workup for them. And then those cases are often that Unbundled or that flat fee.

And then sometimes you have people where you look at them and you say, you know, you really need to come up with the money to retain an attorney, where if you go in on this thing you’re going to get killed. I mean, even if with an attorney you may have a rough case. And that’s where if you have some domestic abuse issues, chemical dependency issues, mental health issues, or other unusual issues that are going on that sometimes you really do have to need the lawyer.

We have third-party custody cases here in Minnesota. You don’t have that in every state, I know they don’t in Louisiana where an uncle or some of the substantial relationship if there is a real problem in the child’s home, they can petition for custody. And often times those really you need an attorney on because it’s an obscure area, we do a lot of work in that area but it’s a little obscure. So, typically some areas its best to have an attorney. Although we have drafted some up for people to handle on their own.

So, a lot of us just assessing the situation and advising the people what’s best for them and then as with most things the pocket book then determines are you buying a [inaudible 00:24:04] or you buying a Cadillac. What can you afford? And we try to discuss that with the clients and then you have clients that come through that have zero, they don’t have anything at all. Every now and then we may assist them as well if we can, a large part depends upon volume, depends upon the circumstances but at least at the end of the day if they’ve talked to me for 20, 30, 40 minutes, they leave the conversation with a much better idea of how to process works, where they need to go for next steps.

So, even if somebody doesn’t retain me, I’m still going to give him or her valuable information. I’ve had people come through here where they say they retained me because I didn’t just look at them and say, how much money do you have and then not say anything else. And I’ve actually had people come through where they’ve mentioned lawyers I know, and they said, you know they were kind of rude, they didn’t give him the time of day, they wouldn’t tell him how the process worked until they got their money in their pocket and one of the reasons … And they had the money, they just didn’t like the person’s attitude. And one of the reasons they hired me is they said I sat down and my first question wasn’t, where is the money, my first question was okay, what’s your situation. They give me a quick rundown; I give them a rundown of what likely scenarios were. And then we talk about money. And then we talk about the Unbundled or the retainer. Once I had listened to them and gotten a good assessment of where they were at.

After doing this for so long, you have to get to be real quick study, and you can assess the situation very rapidly. That always has been one of my strengths. So, in a 20, 30 minute conversation, I can pretty much tell somebody how stuff is going to lay out, what the strengths or weaknesses are, or what they’re looking at happening and how the process works, you know family law 101 overview.

And like I say even if they don’t … I had one person where they didn’t end hiring me but they referred me to somebody else. And said, I didn’t have the money at the time to do what I needed to do but hey, call this guy because he told me what I needed to do. He gave me the next steps, he pointed me to the forms because I had somebody that didn’t have any money at all, I told him, well, this is what, this is what you need to do, here is the website to go to. And that way that at least like I say when they got done they went ahead and they were able to process on their own and I said if you ever do need help you’ll give us a call and if you need to sit down with us for an hour we can do the Unbundled, come in sit with us for half an hour, pay us a $100 and we will help you look stuff over. So they always had that option.

Dave Aarons: Right. And I really liked the fact that on any given call, you’re always going to put them in a better position even if [inaudible 00:26:46] resources or whatever, your commitment to making sure that that person walks away better understanding how to move forward with the next steps whether it will be the filling or whether apply for help even if it’s [inaudible 00:26:58] but then also that you options that I come in for half an hour, an hour kind of wherever they’re at financially to know that if they want the help it’s available. And maybe could you talk a little bit about … So, when a lead comes in does your secretary set the appointment for you and then you give them a call?

Robert Manson: What happens now is I used to handle them but [inaudible 00:27:17] guys are keeping me way to busy I’m not getting any work done. But it got a little hairy [inaudible 00:27:23] got a little hairy up for a while just returning all the calls because of the volume, but what I’ve done is my associate who has experience in family law, she often times has started screening the calls, and that way she can give them some feedback, she can size up who needs to what, she can just explain Unbundled and the retainer. Sometimes if it’s more complex, she’ll bounce it over to me. Often times I’ll do a follow-up call as well. Often times she can go ahead and schedule them in, often times I’ll call people as well.

Between the two over us, we can get everybody talked to, and return calls off to everybody, which is really important. In that way, it’s covered, so that’s what a lot of times happens. My assistance, I’d prefer to have the attorneys return the lead calls just because of that way again you get in that situation that they get some advice and they get some assistance with what’s going on even if they can’t retain us, whereas if I have my legal assistant doing it she doesn’t … Well, she can’t really shouldn’t be giving the advice. And it’s hard for her some time to assess the situation.

So it’s kind of a double team thing between my associate and I. And it worked out really well because then sometimes she’ll get a hold of somebody else like this … Really don’t have any funds, don’t have any ability and like I said, she can steer them the right traction or you get people that are just inquiring, which is fine, and that way we give them the advice and we shoot up a follow-up email, pleasure talking to you, please give us a call if we can be of any further assistance.

And that’s what I like about your system too because when those leads comes through, their email is right in the middle there. So, all you got to do is click on that new email and shoot them out quick, pleasure talking to you, make sure to give us a call if you need us or any further help. And that way it’s back in their mailbox and they have our contact information right in front of them. And that’s a real benefit of your system as well. Plus, having to come through on my cell phone is nice. Every now and then something will come through after hours, I’ll look at it and it may be something where somebody has an emergency and really needs an attorney to call back right away.

And you can assess that, so I call him back, so I call him back … In the next morning if I’m out to a movie with my wife, when do I return the call. So that’s nice, but having that ability is nice because there are times when you get somebody that says, I just been serving [inaudible 00:29:59] tomorrow, they need a real immediate response. Or the mother of my child, I don’t have any custody and she just told me she’s going to take the kid to California. And in Minnesota, they can do that until there is custody or parenting time ordered, the mom has sole legal physical custody, guy has no rights and she can leave the state with the child.

And once she leaves state with the child, yeah, you can an action here but once she’s gone especially if it’s a younger child, it’s hard to get anything done. But if somebody says, end of the week I’m going to be going to California with a child, well, you get into court really fast, you do your Ex parte motion, you get a court order restraining the removal of the child until the court can look at it, you get some temporary parenting time and at that point in time, the burden is on the person to prove it’s in the best interest of the child to leave the state.

So, there are certain things that come through they’re a very time restrictive. Well, I just had one, Lead came through last night, I called the person back because the mom is coming up from Oklahoma to get the child 15 and a half years old, been here for 11 months. Lived with the grandma four years in Colorado prior to that. Well, we filled an emergency motion, waiting to hear back from the judge but I was able to get back to him right away, I was able to get the paperwork done and we turned it around within about eight hours. We had a motion in front of the judge. But we do a lot of that type of work but we were able to respond very quickly and now we’ll see what the judge does.

Dave Aarons: And there are certain cases and you can kind of tell if they’re time-sensitive in nature just in the description, you know this is kind of what’s going on versus other ones, obviously, if it’s eight, nine O’clock or whatever the lead comes in, you don’t necessarily need to give them a call them, you just call them in the morning because you know that it doesn’t have that agency but at least being able to take a look at the phone see what it is so that you know if it’s something that has to be turned around on that type of a basis.

Robert Manson: Absolutely. And we’re in business to make money, there’s every now and then if I see if it’s a grandparent calling in, my son da, da, da [inaudible 00:32:10] I tend to return those calls a little bit faster. Just from the standpoint that they to be footing the bill. And so there is a little more significant funding there.

So, sometimes I had one guy, I don’t if I was someplace but it was one of these things where it wasn’t a big deal, so I went ahead and called him back right away. He was so impressed I called him back eight o’clock. I mean, he just said, I’m going to hire you, you called me back at eight O’clock. And often times I will call people back in the evenings, it just depends on what’s going on. As far as that goes, often times I will call him back.

But that guy was so impressed that I came across my phone, I was some place I just hit the … And again, and that beauty of our lead thing, I get that phone number on my message and it pops up on my phone, I call him, and this guy was so impressed that I got back to him 8:30. I mean, he just said, you’re the guy I’m hiring, you called me back right away, I’m going with you, $3,000, $4,0000 later, we got the case taken care of and resolved to his satisfaction, and he’s a happy camper.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, absolutely, you can’t always do that, I mean, you’re in court or other things are going on but it’s something we’ve talked about a lot in previous podcasts, especially with lead generation that when you can make that immediate response and people are really impacted they go, wow, that was quick. I mean, if you can call back in that first minute it [inaudible 00:33:35] because number a lot of times they’re not even an attorney to call them back, they think it’s going to be a secretary. So, number one the attorney calls and number two, they’re calling back that fast it really exceeds their expectations from the first moment and also it’s a lot more likely to get the person on the phone if you can call them back.

And that’s just industry standard, so whenever possible we … It’s so key to align the firm such that if you’re in court a lot to be able to have someone making that initial call immediately whenever possible because you’ve got a lot of great factors that are getting that relationship off to the best start right from the get-go.

Robert Manson: I had a guy one time he goes, I just hit send because I just hit send in my computer and my phone rang and I said, what the hell is this. Yeah, it was pretty funny. But yeah, that’s why it’s nice to have the associate because like I said, I prefer to have the attorney. I mean, if not, and one of us is available my assistant will return calls to [inaudible 00:34:36] as well. Like I say, we try to get those back as soon as possible because you do have that expectation.

Dave Aarons: Yep. Bob, let’s touch really briefly on just the initial call because that’s key and especially for attorneys that don’t have a lot of experience fielding leads because that call tends to be a little different than let’s say a warm market referral … And correct me if we disagree but than a warm market referral, someone has been referred by a friend, or a family member, or comes in when they already kind of know who you are or you have some credibility, the leads don’t know who you are yet, they probably never heard about your firm and so it’s a little bit a … It’s a warm lead in that you know that’s it’s a client that has an immediate lead for a legal situation in our county but they don’t know you, they don’t have that relationship yet.

So, can you talk about the last few years doing this, what the key strategies you’ve developed for that initial call to instill that [inaudible 00:35:32]? You talked about earlier about taking the time to listen in and feel their situation out before you talk about the fund. And then also kind of how you then determine specifically where they’re at financially, what they need help … Obviously, you find out what they need help with but whether then financially then how you explain how you can deliver the various different options so that they understand that you’re the type of lawyer that’s flexible and can fit, you can service them within their budget

Robert Manson: You know for me and I do agree with that. Yeah, a warm lead [inaudible 00:36:05] a warm lead, it’s important to get back to them, but you know they’re looking for you. So it’s not like, oh, I got to get back from a 20-minute thing. Like you say, the leads come in this way. I’ll be candid, I just say, hey, Robert Manson from a family law attorney, I received an email text message regarding your situation, what do you have going on? I want to hear what they have going on at that point in time because they want to be heard.

And for me, again, I’ve been doing this for so long that I can pick up things very rapidly, I have a lot of knowledge, I’m very good at strategizing, so I want to hear what they feel is important to start. I will then often times ask some questions, once they’ve told me, okay, here is the situation, how old are the children, what county are you in because that makes a big difference because again, I’m familiar with the judges in the counties, I’ve [inaudible 00:36:58] counties work, [inaudible 00:36:59] county is different, and [inaudible 00:37:01] county is different, and [inaudible 00:37:01] different [inaudible 00:37:03] county is very conservative, you get out state it’s even more so. [Inaudible 00:37:08] not really good judges up there, at least not for guys.

So, for me, it’s a matter of getting that preliminary information, what is your problem, what is your situation, and then several very quick questions. Again, age of the child, anything relative to mom, mental health chemical dependency issues, any physical abuse going on, what counties, has there been an order in place before this, and how much you’ve seen the child at this point in time.

So, that helps me then to size up what advice I’m going to give, and then at that point in time I’ll normally say, well, this is what you need to do. And then I will tell them because that way I’m telling them this is what you need to do, these are what the steps are going to be. And then I say, we have a couple of different we can proceed, one is retainer and sometimes I’ll tell them, you really need a lawyer if you can afford one. This is our retainer, I would really highly advice that you can borrow the money, whatever, that you do this or if it’s not that immediate I’ll say, this is what we offer, we have a retainer where we represent you, we draft everything, we appear in court. We have Unbundled available, and that’s where we can either handle a piece, we don’t actually go to court, but we can draft up preliminary information, or we have flat fee available where we can just draft up the documents and then I [inaudible 00:38:26] a little bit.

Sometimes they say, you know, I don’t have anything at all and then you’ll often times say, okay, well, here is what you need to do, you need to get the summons to petition for custody and parenting time. Google Minnesota court forms, the forms there you can go ahead and fill it out, or if they need a motion to modify custody. The form is online but you give them the advice, when you get the form do not limit yourself to the two lines on the form, get affidavits from other people, so you know what [inaudible 00:38:55] there because if they just get the form and put … You can’t write in two lines a motion for modification custody is not going to work. So, I run down a quick scenario on what … By anyway, that goes with that whole advice thing.

So, often times too when you’re explaining to them … And I’d have people that are looking to do it themselves and you explain it to them, and they realize, oh, it’s a lot more difficult than I thought, I’m going to call my folks, I’ll give you a callback. And sometimes they do that.

So, for me it’s a matter of hearing them, ask them some questions, give them the advice and then size up the financial situation. Advice them what you have available, see what’s the best fit for them, sometimes again explaining to them how the process works too a little bit more in depth will have them say, you know, I think I’m going to try a little harder to get some up, be it for the Unbundled, or be it for the full retainer.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, and have you had some clients that maybe will take the initial step, they’ll get the form, will get everything together and then maybe you schedule them in or they come back in and they go, okay look, I really need some help with filling this out and then you kind of start with them on Unbundled and then they kind of come in for an hour or two. Do you find that kind of sometimes it just goes kind of one step at a time where they got to try to do something’s on their own and they coming in for help when they get stuck?

Robert Manson: Often times. I had a guy where he went and he got the forms and he called me back and said, no, I need to retain you. But I looked at the forms, he said it’s just so much here and maybe in the interim one guy that he sold a truck or something or whatever or contacted some people and said I was able to obtain the funds, and sometimes you’ll get people that you talk to weeks or months before and … Well, just recently I had somebody where somebody got a hold of me and it was a third party custody, mom is out of state, they want to take some steps but they didn’t really do anything till push come to shove, and this is like four, five months. Four, five months go by and then I call him, they say, oh, mom just started something down Louisiana and she wants the kids and we retained a lawyer down there but they don’t have any ability for us to get those kids down there. Their statutes aren’t the same.

So, the attorney up there said you better get a hold of your lawyer up in Minnesota. So they called me back and said, we need something. So, again, they came in, they paid the retainer, we got an emergency motion in front of the court, got the court to call the court down there, they talked, decided it needed to be done up here in Minnesota, and we got our order signed and then the court set up a trial and because it was up here in Minnesota the mother did not come up for the trial and we just defaulted and they got the kids. The kids have been up here for five years and mom wanted to drive them to Louisiana.

So, that was one of those situations where they had called me, talked to me, we’re impressed, didn’t want to spend the money at that point in time then waited till there was a crisis and them boom, called me and then it was like, okay, go time.

So, yeah, often times I have people we started out Unbundled and they end up retaining fully or they keep coming back and do it piece by piece, absolutely.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, a lot of lawyers don’t necessarily see that when you start with a lead generation program where you start advertising and so forth, clients start coming through but sometimes it takes them time either because the timing is not right or because they’re getting their resources together to start coming in and retaining and it’s like that pipeline effect. And what I’m curious about is do you have any systems in place to follow up with clients because obviously you’ve got kind of a big long pipeline of clients, hundreds and hundreds of lead and so forth of ways in which you kind of touch base or reach out to them every now and again or do you kind of rely them to follow up with you once you’ve made that initial contact and send them your information?

Robert Manson: I’ll be candid, this point in time, we rely on them to contact us because we’re busy. And from that standpoint we haven’t at this point, at some point we will probably start to do that. We started to track that a little bit better, but we’re still in process in that as far somebody said they’re interested. We’re in the process trying to develop a way to do that a little bit better, which maybe is for Clio, but at this point in time maybe setting up some type of an [inaudible 00:43:21] follow-up particular in the ones that are more promising. But that’s something that we’re looking at and that we’re looking to put in process at this point, but absolutely.

It’s kind of like sowing in a field, sometimes these stuff doesn’t ripen for quite a while, or again, like that one scenario I mentioned where I’m talking to the person, they’re so impressed with me they didn’t hire me by they told their friends about me. And so that’s why for me it is important to take a little of extra time, a little bit of that extra care because word of mouth is important too still in this business and whenever we can get people in the door is very important.

And again, I was surprised, first person came through and I said, “How did you get our name and number?” “Oh well, so and so came in and they didn’t retain you but they said I should.” And because there is this resource thing, and they said I should, and the people came in and they retained us. So just the fact that I had taken and met with these people in my office and taken the time and they see that I cared, led them now to tell other people about me.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, that’s ok. And it’s why I love the fact that you take the time and the initial calls to always make sure after being served and your getting the next step, so many lawyers just don’t do that because they just see just that one client, oh, this isn’t going to turn to anything, but they don’t see the long-term that like … The longer-term money which has to do with the referrals that you’re talking about, the pipeline, later on, they might come back and so really just coming back from a standpoint of serving each client with whomever they’re right now and putting them in a better position than where they were before a result of having contact with your firm leads to benefits that you can’t way out in that initial call. And it would appear that they aren’t but inevitably they do if you continue to operate with that philosophy. So, I really appreciate that you do that and I’m glad that it pays dividends in the way that it does.

Robert Manson: Plus, you just kind of feel good.

Dave Aarons: Yes, that’s always-

Robert Manson: Yeah, it’s nice to help people.

Dave Aarons: Exactly. Absolutely. You can sleep better at night so it’s benefiting you too. And ultimately that’s what we’re in the business to do is to serve them and help these folks as well resolve problems, we’re problem solvers and so that’s what it’s all about.

And [inaudible 00:45:41] to the follow-up, I’ll just mention briefly I believe Cleo does have the capacity to put kind of like a schedule in the way that you can follow up and for those that are listening that are not using Cleo, you can also use like a MailChimp, Weber, Constant contact or something. And what you do is when you get the email address maybe once a month, you add them to what’s called auto-responder series, and then once a month maybe you have maybe three or four different versions of an email that just says, hey, we’re following up, we touched base a month ago or a few months ago and we just wanted to stay in touch, we enjoyed speaking with you, we’re available whenever you may need us, if you need additional assistance here’s our number, here is our phone number, more than happy to help with family law case. And you can even customize the area of law with a little variable and so forth.

And then when you have that Kind of setup, when you have a few emails written out, you can just kind of drop each email once a month into that auto-responder and it kind of reaches to the people, keeps you on top of mind, and then those people come back as they get those emails and they go, yeah, this is still alive because these family issues tend to not go away and so later and when their circumstances change and they get that email and it’s at that right moment, you’ll start to get these call backs from months before. And it’s actually quite … For those who have implemented, which we used when I used to take a lot of calls in legal access client business, you’d be surprised at how many people will respond to those emails every single time one goes out even months later.

Okay, cool. So, I appreciate [inaudible 00:47:14] of the initial call. One of the other thing I wanted to get some feedback from you because they’re a number of attorneys … In fact, we have another podcast with [inaudible 00:47:22] that came out talking about how she’s expanded to other areas of Missouri. Initially, you were taking all calls yourself and they were in Minneapolis area, and then you made the decision to expand to other states, can you kind of walk through how that initially went and I believe from what I recall is that you were kind of driving and kind of getting familiar with these courts and getting to know some of these lawyers, and only after that you started creating relationships. So maybe you can kind of walk through how you kind of built up that expansion because Minnesota as far as I know isn’t a very small state?

Robert Manson: No, it’s not. And [inaudible 00:48:00] a little part of it is I want to be able to handle all the business in here and expand and grow as we grow. And the thing about the Unbundled is that again you don’t have to be close. So much is being done by email now and phone. I mean, we have clients here in the cities where we draft up affidavits, email it to them, they send them back, motions, petitions … I mean, we’re doing so much of that already that it just seems to be kind of a no-brainer that especially in the Unbundled that you go ahead and just continue it because you can do it, I can do it from here anywhere in the state of Minnesota.

And then as time came on, you’d have situations where people might be out, a little bit out, a little bit far, four, five hours. And in fact, I’ve got one I just handled now that’s about a three hour drive but for me often times what I’ll do is I’ll make it an overnight with my wife, it’s a good way to get away from the office and get an overnight somewhere else in the state of Minnesota.

But then in addition, what I’ve done is I have started then to realize that I need to go ahead and get attorneys in these areas with this office, and that’s kind of a newer process now where I just reach out to somebody that is up in Begley Minnesota, up to the northwest part and they can handle the Bemidji in those areas. And like I say, we’re still kind of in that process of working things out on exactly how we’re going to do that. So we’re in discussions at this point.

And then as far as that goes, the next step would be to … And the thing is here what I noticed I could go up to the [inaudible 00:49:42], I can go a couple of hours away, that doesn’t bother me at all. And I was taking care of the vast majority of the calls. Most of the state’s population is within about two hours from my office and from my office I can get to Saint Cloud about an hour and a half. And often times what I’ll do is I’ll take those because what I’ll do I’ll catch up with phone calls. It’s a good time to catch up on the phone calls as I’m driving out there, so I’m not charging the client the whole drive and I’m still being productive, or I’m talking to my assistance and going over cases and going over case files kind of like the meeting that we would have if I’m still in the office.

So, I’m still being productive so I don’t mind doing that-

Dave Aarons: Maybe even listening to the Unbundled attorney podcast?

Robert Manson: There you go. They’re inspirational. And like I said, that two hours pretty well covers the majority of the population here in Minnesota. So, I don’t get very much at all from the northeast part of the state and I don’t get a whole lot from the Southwest part, what I found is that I was starting to get a lot of leads from the Bemidji area and that was what I was noticing as I was getting a lot from that particular area for whatever reason. And that’s why when I had this case up in that area and met this attorney was so impressed that’s when I talked to him and said, here, let’s go ahead and do this. And what I’m looking is probably having him as counsel and then I’ve actually given his name out to some people for right now, just so they get serviced. And that’s the important thing now and then I’m going to talk to him about working out some type of arrangement [inaudible 00:51:34] counsel and just have him handle hearing or some type of a contract basis.

But it was important for me because of the volume of leads that I was getting from that area that I expand into that area so I can properly service the clients because with somebody up in that area and us having a presence in that area, I’m taking I can handle 80%, 90% of the leads because that’s just how they’ve been developing. And I don’t know why it’s from that area, but that’s only that’s really kind of outside of my reach so to speak that I was getting a significant number of leads from. But now that I got that covered, now I’m very comfortable with that and better able to service the clients, which is very important.

But otherwise, pretty much everything else … Gosh, probably about 80% of the leads are within my ability to get and take care of.

Dave Aarons: There was an episode … We were recording this on the 17th of May, and in three days [inaudible 00:52:40] episode is released and we go into some depth on how she was able to expand from the southwest corner Missouri, which is Springfield to the Northeast corner, which is I think at least four, five hours away St. Louis, and then also now the Northwest corner, which is Kansas city and she talks about the relationships she’s forged with the attorney in St. Louis and she’s working on doing the same in Kansas. So, that would be interesting for you and then we can then also perhaps ask her and we might even do an invitation so you can chat with her about how she [inaudible 00:53:21] how it’s unfolded because certainly if it can be accomplished and it can be done right and you can find the right candidate attorney … I mean, there are certainly a lot of volume especially in state like Minnesota or Missouri where there are other big cities that you otherwise unless you were able to create that relationship with another attorney, you won’t be able to capture that volume.

One thing when I ask about is, I know you’re kind of still in the beginning stages of thinking through how you might work with one of this other attorneys in other cities, have you had any chats about that and what does it look like it might become? Is it going to be where you guys kind of meld into one firm, or is it you’re just contracting and paying a specific hourly? I mean, how is that unfolding, you seem to be looking like it may end up being when you’re with this relationship with these other attorneys you might be forging in other areas of the state?

Robert Manson: At this point in time, I’m looking at doing some paper contract type basis. Reason being a kind of lesson, some of my exposure, some of my overhead, and for me I like to handle trials, I’m a litigator, I have a lot of experience, a lot of expertise because the one thing that you find is when you get outside of the Metro area you don’t find family law boutiques. You don’t have enough business in any given area to support an attorney that does just family law.

The law is very … Not hit or miss, but it’s not as constant, you don’t have an ability to be in court two, three, four or five times a week doing family law motions. In fact, my associate was doing family law down in Iowa for about 18 months, when she came up here, I said, “So is this anything like down there?” And she goes, “Oh, no.” You don’t have the ability to support a practice with a family law practice when you get outside of the metro area; you have to be a generalist, which means you don’t have the expertise or the experience level in family law that we do down here.

I mean, we had a lawyer out state that had been doing it for a number of years and we got into a discussion where he’s trying to claim I filled something late and didn’t realize that the way of counting days is different for the family law than it is for civil practice. Civil practice is less than five days, you do not include Saturday, Sunday, in family law you do. So in other words, five days from Wednesday in family law Friday. Five days from Wednesday in civil is the Wednesday before. So, it’s these little things that he didn’t realize and he’d been doing it for years that you count differently.

Again, you don’t have the experience level and the depth of experience. And the thing that most lawyers do is they’ve grossly underestimate law, the complexities, the difficulty in really practicing it, and in presenting it at trial. And most lawyers just don’t have the litigation experience that I have, they just din litigate as much as I do for whatever reason.

I think it’s because for me, my philosophy with my clients is if you’re being offered your worst-case scenario, why would not go to trial and I’m not afraid to go to trial. So, I think I do tend to try … I’m perfectly happy to settle, I settle a lot of cases just because people know I’ll go to trial, but just the volume, I’m a litigator, I’m very, very good at what I do, so what I envision then is to hire people to handle motion practice when I can’t appear by phone or those situations where you need a lawyer in the court room to argue the motion and then I would handle the trial is what I’m anticipating. Into the trial, the important, the real heavy lifting.

Dave Aarons: Got you. So, I’ve got two last questions we usually ask towards the end and then we wrap it up, I really appreciate it been a really awesome call, I appreciate your sharing kind of how you’ve developed these systems over these years and I’m glad to hear things have bee and going do well. One of the things I wanted to ask to you would be number technology, I think most recently brought onboard Cleo but you talked about earlier about how a lot of things are virtual, email, and working with the clients not necessarily in the office in certain cases and also you’re working with clients all the state and so forth. What forms of technology whether it’d be Clio or Dropbox have you found out that have been working well to kind of streamline your practice and give you the capacity to keep track of all the cases and also work with people on a virtual basis whether it be signing documents really easily and these types of things?

Robert Manson: For me, I’m an old guy. So, I was working on … I had a typewriter that I was trying legal documents on, so that goes back always, I graduated in 90. So, when I first started I still had a [inaudible 00:58:16]. So, for me, I’ll be candid, I’m still getting used to some of the technology. We’re networked with the computers and we’re able to keep a lot of stuff in house for a long time. Now though the Clio we’re looking … And my associate out of Iowa had a lot of experience with Cleo, so she’s getting us more in line with the technological aspects of it. And the biggest issue for us right now is just the case management because making sure that every case is being taken care of, that’s been followed through on, that things are being tackled appropriately, and that’s why Clio is so nice with a lot of their law office management, a lot of things are available through them.

And we’re still interfacing and putting stuff together, we had this time slips for billing and we’re looking to get more over to Clio, so it’s all integrated into one. So that process is still going and of course, it’s hard to choose which practice management do you use. We’d looked at a lot of different … Talked to a lot of lawyers, looked at a lot of different types of things, a lot of stuff out there, and I think we used Clio kind of ease of use for the cloud concept. And one of the big things was the … And we saw we had to put into practice is that bill pay or that LawPay being able to set up the recurring payments.

That’s going to be very important and that’s going to kind of give us the next [inaudible 00:59:41] because often times especially on small dollar amounts, it’s hard to follow up when somebody says, well, I’ll pay you 100 bucks a month, then you got to call him and get the card and run it, and having the ability to get to automate some of that is going to be very important because that way you’re not spending resources to go chase an amount that isn’t a huge amount but it all adds up.

So, we more we can do with that. I’m looking forward to that, I’m kind of excited about that concept of getting some type of recurrent payment run on there because that way you have that ability not to have to have to spend a lot of time chasing down dollars. And that’s kind of more of it, so we’re still a little bit in that phase as we expand and have the need more for it, we’re getting it into place.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, awesome. And that feature of law pay has being really powerful and also you can kind of time it with when they get paid and so that … People tend to spend things that come in accounts pretty quickly and so if can work it around so that they’re not spending their budget for their kids unknowingly and making sure that that’s prioritized when they get paid is the first thing that comes out. So, it’s been really effective in making sure also that those payments go good in those payment plans, which gives you guys a lot more confidence that I can put together a payment plan with this client and work with this person knowing that you got a lot better chance that these payments are going to go through successfully over time and it doesn’t have the same [inaudible 01:01:11] management.

Robert Manson: Right.

Dave Aarons: All right, and then I guess final question would be is there anything else maybe a last tip that you’ve kind of, or suggestion or something that maybe you made some mistakes early on as a mistake early one with fielding leads or offering Unbundled legal services that you would suggest for maybe attorney that’s newer or someone that is fielding leads for the first time or offering Unbundled, just overarching what’s led to your success the most in this model with leads and Unbundled legal services that you would suggest to those that maybe are newer than the veteran that you are?

Robert Manson: What led to my success is picking up the phone when you guys called me, actually, connected up with you. But the others, for new lawyers just starting out, the most important is get those office procedures in place right away. Get your law office management setup before you need it, get your billing program set up before you need it, don’t wait until later because it gets to be very hard to reinvent the wheel. And that would be thing because coming from a non-technology background, we didn’t have some of the things in place that maybe we should have early on, and that tends to then lead to your stress level because then you’re stressed out, is this being covered, is that being covered, what needs to be done.

So, that’s kind of the main thing is to get those office things in place right away. And then as far as leads, a lot of it just comes from experience, giving that advice and learning how things go. Don’t be afraid to call colleagues and call other people for advice especially if you’re a new lawyer. I did that a lot when I was younger and it’s a good idea, even now, I’ll often times call attorneys and run stuff by them although usually if I don’t know the answer they don’t either. I usually get, well, that’s a good question.

But don’t be afraid to reach out to people, don’t be afraid to double check with people that have been in practice longer, if you have a difficult situation, you’re not alone out there. Attorneys like to impart their wisdom, we all like to have our egos stroked. And I guess that is one thing I would advise people. I mean, it’s so much with Unbundled but just practice, in general, is don’t be afraid to reach out to someone and say, hey, I’ve got this case, what do you think. I have colleagues who call me that have been doing this a long time and will often time call and consult on something.

And from the Unbundled standpoint, it’s a matter of just getting back to the leads, call them, listen to them, and find out and offer them the services that you can. And then again, put the support staff in place to be able to support that then when the business does start.

Dave Aarons: Awesome. Well Bob, I really want to thank you and express my appreciation for the years that we’ve been working together, the work that you’re doing for the clients. I mean, this is being just a wonderful relationship and I just appreciate the opportunity to work with you and I know the clients are appreciating your experience and the service-minded approach that you are bringing to their case, the flexibility you’re bringing with Unbundled, and I just couldn’t be more excited about the years to come and the growth of the empire you’ve built in Minnesota.

Robert Manson: Me too, and I recently had the opportunity to have an attorney from New Jersey call, and I don’t know if he even got the name from you guys. I think he kind of called out of the blue and I was able to tell him that I was very impressed with the process, and I was impressed with you as well. You both have to be very good to work with, easy to work with, responsive, and that’s good. I mean, knowing that you guys back at the service are more interested than just getting your money, that you’re also interested in benefiting the attorneys. It’s nice to have a mutually beneficial relationship. And that’s something I’ve valued and I’ve really enjoyed working with you as well.

Dave Aarons: Thank you, I appreciate that. It’s been a real pleasure. So, with that, we’ll go ahead and wrap it up and for those of you that are listening, thank you so much for participating and we’ll see you all in the next episode.

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